Alternative views… (or, “Now it begins!”)

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This was posted on The Kairos’ FaceBook page about 3:30 this afternoon.  I’m glad the gentleman was willing share his views, but it would seem healthier to me if we could engage in dialog.

One assumes he’s objecting to the premise about Jesus’ orientation.  Do you think that’s going to completely obscure the kairos commandment theme — Fear not! — for most Christians?

Your thoughts?

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55 Responses to Alternative views… (or, “Now it begins!”)

  1. Jim says:

    Not to take the religious aspect out of the equation, nor am I trying to ‘dumb’ anything down, but I’m going to ask some blunt questions and am curious of people’s thoughts.

    What is ‘okay’ sexuality and what is ‘not okay’ sexuality? What is the purpose of sex? Is sex strictly for pro-creation? Is sex strictly pleasure? I think something of both. What about the sexuality of aged people beyond their child-bearing years? What about people clearly neither male nor female – but partly both? Where do those people (made in God’s image BTW) lie in the eyes of God in terms of their sexuality? Are they to choose or be asexual?

    Given a monogamous married couple, does sex require the use of strictly a penis and vagina? Hand? mouth? Anus? “Doggie style” penis/vagina sex okay, or unbiblical? Where is the line on pleasuring myself? or is that forbidden as well? ie: I can rub my knee when it hurts – but not to receive pleasure.

    I guess my point is: how do we know ‘right’ sex from ‘wrong’ sex? Strictly bible? Gut instinct? both?

    Sexuality is one of the many facets of being human – I hope Stephen dedicates as much time and energy to strengthening the Kingdom of God in other ways as he does to this issue on sexuality.

    • stephen says:

      Jim,

      Just because I am on this site speaking about the morality of sex doesn’t mean that I don’t have other topics and areas of interest. Of course, I dedicate my time and energy towards strengthening the Kingdom of God. The one way I do that is by being obedient to the scriptures and how God has instructed us to live. God’s Word is clear and straight forward. It is man and his sinful lusts/heart that misinterpret the scriptures and twists them to fit their lifestyle.

      Sex is for 1) procreation, and 2) the pleasure of the two people that God ordained to be wed in Holy Matrimony. 3) it is to unite those two people together in such a spiritual union as to cement trust and love amongst other moral values in building a family. 4) it is to present between male and female a Godly love and fear so that the parents may bring up their children to honor God and to follow His plan of how mankind should be governed.

      Now, being made in God’s image we were given a test of choice in the garden of Eden. Simple test: the choice of obeying God, or taking matters in our own hands and trusting ourselves. Our “Gut-feelings/instincts”. Which one got us into trouble and ruined that perfect image of God in our reflective lives? Because of man’s disobedience men may be made in the image of God, but no longer live in it’s reflection. Men are, as Jordan put it, “Broken”. And so we take a pure sexual relationship and we pervert it. We make it our own and no longer place it under God’s authority. No one who is capable of honest sexual behavior should be deprived of it provided they remain within the boundaries God set up. This is regardless of age. Abraham and Sarah prove this. How a monogamous sexual couple perform sex is their business and should not be revealed outside of the bedroom. It is a wonderful thing that God does not go into details on this in the Bible but allows the couple to explore their sexuality. God simply says, “And Adam knew Eve”. Their is no bedroom talk.

      Right sex? Wrong sex? Is it right to have multiple partners? Is it right to have sex in public? In the room with children? With children? With animals? When we remove one facet of God’s honorable boundary of sex, then we remove another and another until there is no longer any forbidden sex, just our own interpretation and our own perversions. The problem that I see is that no one is willing to abstain for righteousness sake. No one is willing to take the Word of God and let God be it’s authority and not man. The problem is that People want to reap the benefits of sex without any of the responsibility. We want casual sex and if a child is conceived, we kill it. If a sexual disease is spread, we manufacture more medicines and simply don’t tell the next partner. We damage and abuse the rear ends of men, but it is okay because of how we feel. What do you want Jim? Because in all reality, it is up to you. It is your choice. But think of the consequences.

  2. stephen says:

    On November the 8th, I asked my opponent Jordan some serious questions and today, November the 16th I have yet to hear from him and receive any response. Instead, I feel as though my opponent decided to insult me and then run from the responsibility of answering my queries. Also on November 12th I was suddenly admonished through a letter from an elderly gentleman for “flogging” my opponent and the author with my religious values and beliefs. Core beliefs that are firmly established through the Bible, not a church system. Also I have yet to have the healthy dialog with the author as he only seems to silently sit back and occasionally moderate.

    Gentlemen, I thank you for your contributions. Although you have seemingly come to the conclusion that I must be ignored, (or am I just assuming this as well?) I on the other hand have been diligent in waiting patiently for the answers that I asked my opponent on the 8th. Eight days, and nothing but silence. I know that the times and hearts of men are changing in this world. The book of Revelation reveals that this would happen. But God’s truth never changes. I can clearly see that I through my opposition to this book and what the author attempts to use it for has become a thorn in its side, and rightly so. May the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be blessed forever and remain pure and Holy.

    • admin says:

      Dear Stephen,

      (1) I’m saddened that you’ve now introduced the idea of opponent in this discussion area. I’m pretty conflict-averse, so it troubles me. Would you consider giving an old guy like me a little peace by changing that to “dialog partner” or somesuch?

      (2) I haven’t felt I should get involved in the discussion here since I had 320 pages to set out my beliefs. Although I’m accepting your implied invitation to participate tonight, I don’t expect to continue.

      (3) I agree God’s truth never changes, but human understanding of it seems to, doesn’t it? If you were one of the people in the history recorded in Acts 10-15, would you have been Peter, who accepted a new understanding as revealed by God? Or more like “the apostles and the brothers” who criticized Peter for going into the house of uncircumsized men and eating with them? Would you have accepted Peter’s account of “a new thing” God was doing, or would you have insisted on the centuries-old traditional understanding? If our Father God “so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son” to show that His love supercedes His righteous judgment, well, forgive me, but isn’t it presumptuous of us sinning humans to judge others? “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.” (John 12:46). His words, his life, his death and resurrection! all seem to tell us, “Follow My model of loving kindness … even unto death … not the inhospitality and judging that is so tempting.”

      (3) I confess that I love trying to be like God…God the Judge, that is. I have so much more difficulty trying to be like God the lover of mankind, the suffering servant. It seems that even when I strive to follow His two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-39), I seem to fall for the temptation to criticize, moralize, judge. To be honest, I have been judging you. Pretty fiercely and unlovingly. I shake my head sadly and mutter, “He just doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get the Savior’s love and forgiveness and concern … concern not for rules (He and the disciples broke OT laws, of course, and He was criticized as a glutton and winebibber) but concern for people. So I apologize to you, Stephen, and will try to quit assuming the same “superior attitude” about you that I sense in you. It’s logically absurd for me to have done that. With God’s help, I’ll do better.

      (4) Yes, may the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be blessed forever, and (regardless of anything we say or do) it will remain pure and Holy.

      Now let’s all go out and do what He asked: feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, invite the stranger in, clothe the naked, look after the sick, and visit the prisoner. I shoulda been doin’ that instead of all this writing, probably. {grin}

      In faith and love~
      Paul

    • Jordan says:

      Stephen… I am sorry I have not responded to your questions. I am sorry you waited so long. I do have to say that I work and don’t spend every day looking at this site. You’re right to assume that I might have “ignored” you. You are not important in my life and when I have the time to come back to this page I do. I don’t know about you but I spend most of my time working to provide for my family. I’m not blessed with a huge pile of money and I need to work!

      To answer your questions. Here is what you ask

      “Please explain to me, as I would like to know, the phrase and it’s meaning within the book, “Fear not”. Is it referring to allowing God’s grace to cover your sins as you struggle to repent and live for Him, or is it saying that you can live your life as you see it and not fear because God will not punish you as Jesus took on that punishment for you so you can continue to live in your sin? ”

      I believe that the book is saying that it is ok to sin… but you must ask for forgiveness. Don’t fear GOD as he wants to be with you and know you. Don’t fear GOD as he will be there for you. Do I know exactly what the book is saying No I’m not the writer but I have a good idea from how and what I know of the writer.

      I’m also surprised that you had this feeling as there have been other strains of conversation between us that has streched almost as long.

      I also don’t feel that we are opponents. We are talking about the same issues from slightly different views. Do I agree with you… yes on some points. Do I disagree with you… yes on some points. Does that mean we are opponents? I’m sorry you feel we are as that puts you in a place of defence vs. offence. I’m not there. I’m still learning and willing to hear more. if its an opponent your looking for I am not your person and will not comment any more. If you want communication and colaboration I am all for that.

      • stephen says:

        Paul,

        When I made my initial comment I did not expect to have that comment publicized as the main subject for a debate. Sure, a few snickers and scoffs here and there. That is to be expected. But you wanted healthy dialog and it has been my intention to do so. Never did I want or desire to give forth an example of any superior attitude and forgive me if it has seemed that way. I have not displayed any credentials or really even have tried to defend myself, but I have wanted and desired to uplift the Holy Son of God, the Savior of the entire world. What I say now I say with peace and love. No anger or pride intended so please don’t take my words that way.

        You asked me if I were one of the people recorded in history in Acts 10-15 if I would have been Peter who accepted a new understanding as revealed by God. The answer is yes. As I have searched the scriptures and have read in the context, Peter was a Jew and he was at that time struggling with Gentile Christianity. Gentiles were considered “fuel for the fires of Hell” by the Jews. It was very hard for him to accept them as they did not live the ritualistic life of the Judaistic religion. The Pharisees had taught the Jews that they had to live by the exact letter of the law, by which they made extremely hard to live by as they perverted the law by making it even harder t live by and in turn placing their own peopl in bondage,and that by living by such a strict code, then and ONLY then the Messiah would come. But Jesus had disproved that theory and came humbly for all men, even those of whom didn’t believe in Him and eventually crucified Him. Peter had to come to the knowledge through Gods revelation that He came not just to save His chosen people, but those considered heathen and wretched as well. So, yes God in the flesh revealed that we were to love all men, including sinners and saved alike. But in chapter 15:20 there is a list of things that these Gentile Christians were to abstain from and one of them is fornication. It is repeated in verse 29 and commended “from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well”. This chapter introduced the Apostle Paul to us and the beginning of his ministry. Paul, the champion of the Gentiles. The same Paul who wrote the book of Romans. I would go into detail with this book, but I would like for you to read and reread it over and over again in your studies lest I be accused of judging you. Read Chapter 1, especially verses 21-32.

        I point out that in verse 23 of that chapter the reason why I have come to judge your book as I have. Not by my reasoning, but what it says in the verse of a Holy book, “And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man…” I do believe that the Son of God is Jesus. Jesus is fully man and fully God who came as a sacrifice to die in my stead for me and assure that my sins be forgiven in the sight of a Holy God, not to live as a corrupt man or to condone men’s sinful lives.

        Further in verses 26 and 27 it reads, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet”. The list goes on but finally in verse 32, “Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them”.

        Now, in that paragraph, please understand that I did not write those words but quoted them from the Bible. I am not personally trying to judge you. I am simply letting the Bible speak.

        1 Corinthians 6:9-10 gives another list of those who would not enter into God. On that list includes, “Fornicators, Adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind. Now if I go by this list none of us, including myself are going to enter into the kingdom of God because we all are guilty before God. But thankfully there is verse 11 and I quote this one, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God”. Verses 12-20 go on to talk about fleeing fornication. Now in my reasoning, and according to verse 11, “Such WERE some of you”, it implies that those who have been washed and sanctified and justified are no longer in the employ of and occupation of sin, but have been delivered from a former lifestyle that would keep them out of the kingdom of God. “Some of you”, not all because not all of those addressed had changed their ways and put such things aside. “Were” is an interesting word here. my purpose here is not to judge, but to specifically establish whether homosexuality is a sin or not a sin for Believers in Christ under the New Covenant. God will pardon all of our sins, but they must be put in our past. “Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world… Among whom also we all had our conduct in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh…” (Eph. 2:2-3). “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Rom. 6:1-2).

        I have attempted to use scripture. As I will properly “assume”, you will not agree with what is being said and I will just have been another Christian who has “twisted” the scriptures to fit MY point of view. Knowing what I know of your background, you have obviously heard this argument before and therefore as you have chosen to live contrary to these scriptures in question, I personally don’t see any evidence of repentance in you and because of this, I too will not expect to continue any further dialog as I have laid out the scriptures.

        To Jordan,

        My dear friend, it is hard to have conversations like this over the internet. Please excuse my word, “Opponent” as I did not mean for it to come across in a negative light or to offend you. I actually did not think of it as if we were arguing and just used the word without thinking. I did research before I answered each question. Your father is well known and a public figure. What I have said I have tried to say with what truth I knew. I did not try to assume anything. I am sure that Paul is a loving and caring man, and no doubt a great writer. I just don’t happen to agree with the subject of his book and what I believe is his attempt, that it makes Jesus Christ out to be a sexual being to condone a lifestyle of which He has chosen and not the one to deliver us from such. Paul is your father and I did not mean to throw that in your face, only I know what it is like to have a father. I too love him and would rightfully defend him before a stranger even if I knew that he was wrong. I did not desire to offend you and if I have done so in this manner, I apologize. I actually commend you for your love towards him.

        I am still willing to communicate and colaborate with you. And it is true that we all sin everyday and truthfully we must ask for forgiveness. It’s just that we must repent from our sins. That means that we are responsible to turn from those sins and live according to the Word of God. I desperately want to do this in my own heart and life. I want to be pleasing to God and live for Him.

    • admin says:

      Please see my post titled “Fear Not” dated tonight.

  3. Jordan says:

    I was thinking about this conversation we were having and found a bit of help for me to understand somethings.
    My pastor was preaching the other day on the story of Adam and Eve and how they took the fruit from the tree and ate. He also described and read the scripture when the snake convinced the woman to eat and then gave it to her man. He also talked about how god cursed the three it many different ways.

    what you might ask does this have to do with all this conversation. I believe that it is primal to this. God created 3 people. 3 physical humans Adam… Eve from Adam… and Jesus. All man other then Jesus comes from the pair Adam and Eve. So you could say we are made in Gods image right? Here is my big leap of faith. My body was not created by God. My spirit and who I am was created and crafted by god. My Talents and gifts are from him but my body is earthly. Created from the ground (dust to dust). If that is so then is it not possible that since god cursed Adam and Eve and that they made the mistake of eating the fruit they were told not to that we as a by product of them also have a flaw? Could this flaw as any defect effect or affect us in different ways. Cancer, poor eye sight, homosexuality? We all deal with these things differently. some of us need glasses to see. Some of us decide to have lasik and fix it. Some of us don’t have time to fix the physical defects. I’m not saying homosexuality is a physical defect in any way but it might be why some people feel they are born that way. They just have felt that way from the first time they can remember. Their body is programed that way.

    We all are tempted with things. I know I deal with anger and self doubt. was that something that was in Gods image? was that something we get from our ancestors? Is it the Devil tempting us?

    what I am saying is that Faith keeps me strong and the faith that God will fix the wrongs and that I am something God wants, keeps me moving each day.

    Do I pray for Paul and his partner Bruce? I sure do but I also pray that I too am doing the right things in my life that will not only lead me to an eternity with God but also with my family past and present.

    • stephen says:

      Jordan, when we interpret the Creation story we should remember that in doing so we should let the Bible speak FOR itself and not imply with our own personal interpretations. Read carefully and always in context, the Bible will reveal the truth of a matter. The Bible is the absolute infallible authority when interpreting something as it was given and inspired by God, although written by the hands of men.

      Let me point out that God created two people “from scratch”, per say. Adam was made from the ground and formed by God and in His image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27). This is not to say that Adam was a little god, but he was a special creation by God. A human life. God formed mans body from the ground and breathed into him a living soul. It was soon after that Adam realized that he was only part of the image that God had intended and God put this man to sleep and took from his side a rib in which he fashioned a woman. God in His Trinitarian glory created woman as it was not good for a man to be alone. You can read all of this for yourself in the first two books of Genesis. God created a woman for the man for a help mate. Someone to love and to compliment the missing part that would aid in human procreation. Yes, God gave the man a gift to reproduce and create more people. In the narrative, man and woman were made for each other. They were to become one flesh. When interpreted properly that speaks of their sexual relationship. No where does it imply its perversion.

      Jesus was not created. Jesus is the very Son of God that took on flesh (John 1:14-18). God Himself took on flesh because mankind had fallen by being disobedient to His command through the temptation. God tested man because He had given the man free will, a gift because no man should be forced to love God. It is a choice. Jesus took on flesh to identify with man and to become the sacrificial lamb to take our place in God’s wrath. That does not mean that Jesus absorbed the wrath of sinners who still choose to disobey Him. Jesus died so that if a man believe in Him, that the man should live and have everlasting life.

      Our sinful nature is a result of our freewill and sin nature. We choose to sin against God as well as being born with a sinful nature. We are fallen creatures. God has provided a way for us to be granted eternal life. Our sins are our own and not made in God’s image. God cannot sin. He is perfect. We are the broken ones. God’s Son’s blood being shed and covering our individual sins are the only way that God will see us in the image of His Son. Because Christ satisfied the law by dying for us and we live through His shed blood, God the Father now sees us through the delight and love of His Son.

      • Jordan says:

        Stephen you say god gave us free will? Can you point me to that where is says that in the bible?

        you also point out that Jesus died so that if a man believe in him that the man should live and have everlasting Life. does that not mean all mankind, no matter the sin?

        I also think that we as fallen people might not have the insight to what is sin and what is not. I know many people have a hard time seeing the sin when we are in it. is it not possible that God will forgive that sin if when we are at our time of judgment find out it was wrong and ask to be forgiven?

        I also find it interesting that you point out we should be careful in our interpretations of the bible. so should we take each passage for face value? so with Leviticus 15 should we shun our women or men for that matter if we have a “discharge” 7 days unclean then on the 8th day we take two turtledoves or pigeons to the the priest so that he may make an offering to god, so we are made clean? or is that a passage you feel we can change?

        just wondering?

        • stephen says:

          To answer your first question concerning free will:
          For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. – Romans 10:12,13

          Consider this verse in its plain sense meaning. This is not some cryptic reference to the elect calling on the Lord, but takes the form of an open invitation for all unsaved people to call on the Lord regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile.

          “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” – Matthew 23:37

          Here, the Lord Jesus is wanting to bring Jerusalem back to himself in a salvation relationship, but they are not willing. This is not a case of a totally depraved will choosing evil. To suggest that these people did not have a chance to respond to the Saviour’s call makes a mockery of the Saviour’s statement.

          Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, “Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. – Luke 18:22,23

          Was this call by the Lord Jesus real, or not? This man walked away from a direct call of the Lord. Can a person really suggest that Jesus said this to the rich young ruler knowing full well he was incapable of following him?

          For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. – John 3:16

          For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. – 1 Timothy 4:10

          Then said they unto him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” – John 6:28,29

          Now your second question: Jordan, Jesus died for all mankind “Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Man is in need of a savior. No man as you see here is capable of restoring fellowship with God except He be God Himself. The Messiah.

          “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind,have taken us away.” Isaiah 64:6.

          Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19

          The following is a list of verses for you to read and study about repentance as it would take up too much space here: Luke 13:3b, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 3:2, Mark 6:12, Acts 2:38, Proverbs 14:12, James 1:14-15, Ezekiel 18:23-31;33:11.

          Jordan, I would find it strange that God would tell us to repent of our sins and not tell us through scripture what those sins are, but the Bible is clear. It not only tells us what our sins are but what we must do to live. Free will gives us a choice to choose to continue to live in our sins or to live for God. Of course Jesus died for all, but that does not mean that all men will accept Him as their savior.

          The Bible is clear as to what sin is, and yes as fallen men we do struggle with and continue to live with a sinful nature, but when faced with a sin do we just live with it and let it continue to shape us in sin, or are we obedient to God and resist it no matter how powerful it may seem? 2 Peter 1:3-4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

          If it were not possible to resist lust then I doubt God would tell us to do so.

          Rom 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

          God will forgive our sins. We must be willing to turn from them.

          Now to answer your third question in regards to taking things at face value: You will have to understand that God has revealed much through the scriptures and often used events and examples to explain things to man about and concerning His holiness. The Old Testament sacrificial system and much of its traditions are to be understood as teaching a deeper meaning as to the nature of God. Through this we know more about God’s divine nature and by reading and understanding God’s instructions we come to realize just why we are sinners. When it comes to these acts now in our 20th century, no I will not sacrifice a turtle dove and have no need for ceremonial cleansing because Christ did that once and for all and for a spiritual reason. The sacrifice of bulls and goats were but a foreshadowing of the one to come to be the one and final sacrifice for us all. Again, no man could wipe away our sins. Only God in the flesh could do such a thing.

          When it comes to change, only God can change something. Micah 5:2 “For I am the LORD, I change not”. God doesn’t change nor does His attitude towards sin, but men do change and need to understand and so God uses change to His advantage to help us understand Him.

          Now in regards to the Kairos, God will forgive the sin of homosexuality if a man turns from it and changes his ways, regardless of his human feelings. If man, or woman desires to please God and turn from his wicked ways, then he is certainly going to face temptation and will have to struggle and fight, but it is truly worth it. Not that we have to prove anything to God, but our actions will prove to others our love for God in testimony. Homosexuality is a sin and all men know this through the scriptures. Both the Old and New testaments. I love the sinner, but I hate the sin, and why? Because God loves the sinner and hates the sin but we choose whom we will serve, God or our fleshly appetites. “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death”. James 1:15

          • Jordan says:

            Stephen I feel like this long post really didn’t answer my first question and that was where in the bible does it say God gave us free will. you site many places where it talks about people choosing to or not to fallow the lord. That for me is not proof in scripture that he gave us free will.

            Also I asked about taking some passages such as Leviticus 15 and “throwing the out” as they don’t really apply anymore. you don’t seem to have a solid answer for that. What makes a passage worthy of fallowing or not? I understand many things in the bible are stories so that we can understand the idea behind something but how can you tell me to take one thing to heart word for word and then tell me to pass over another?

            you also say in your last paragraph that “god will forgive the sin of homosexuality if a man turns from it and changes his ways, regardless of his human feelings.” and I ask again when does he have to turn from it? is it not possible that on your day of judgment you find all the sins of your life and if you repent of them then you will be saved? I know god would like us to turn from them sooner but I’m asking the question if we at judgment day turn from them and ask for forgivnes will he not forgive?

          • stephen says:

            Jordan, without free will we wouldn’t be able to choose and make simple choices. You choose your pants in the morning, you choose what type of car you want to drive, you choose your wife. Did these things just happen, or do you have a free will to make the choices?

            The old Testament had a ceremonial law that was canceled through the Law of grace. That does not discard the truths of these laws and what they meant. I am not saying that you should pass over anything. These laws are purposed to teach. Once you leave elementary school, you no longer need elementary math, but you don’t discard it either for it is the very basis of calculus and algebra.

            God says in 2 Corinthians 6:2 “Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation”. The Bible is clear. Today is the day of salvation. After you pass from this world that time is over. Judgement begins. There is no repentance after you die. Your soul is fixed for eternity.

  4. stephen says:

    Hmm, I was just on this site about three hours ago and there were at least ten more responses, and although they were single line comments they were in favor of my points. Now the number is 26 responses and those comments are gone and have been cleaned out unlike those comments FOR you blasphemy. And so I am wondering if the admin really does want “healthy conversation” and isn’t biased. It seems okay to bash the believer, but not allow him to have anyone approve of what he says. I have been watching and monitoring both the Kairos site and this blog waiting to welcome any dialog and still monitor it on a regular basis and I don’t appreciate your erasing those comments.

    • admin says:

      Good morning, Stephen. This is Paul, the author. Please allow me to explain what happened so you (and others) will know that no serious comments are being deleted. You’ve raised valid points throughout the past couple of weeks, as have those who dialogued with you, and all are welcome to continue that here.

      In the last two weeks, almost 50 one-line comments have been posted throughout various posts, not just this one (Alternative Views…). While they occasionally appear to relate to the item they are “replying” to, their content is never specific and it became obvious from the aggregate that someone(s) found that this was an un-moderated site and began constantly posting their spurious notes. “Fool’s names and fool’s faces always appear in public places,” right? They were having their little fun, and I object to their clutter. So I have had to go in and remove them one by one.

      To avoid letting this site devolve into a trash heap of inanity, I’m changing it to “moderated” for the time being. While you and I disagree on some things, YOUR COMMENTS ARE THOUGHTFUL, RESPECTFUL, REASONED, AND LOVING. They add to the dialogue. You’ve clearly put time and effort into composing them. I value that very highly…as I do those who have answered your posts and posed their own questions.

      I hope you’ll trust me; I’ve had to remove many more of these “pot-shots” than the ones you believed were supportive of your thinking in this thread. With you, I initially believed these were affirmations. Not well-written, not well-edited (misspelling was characteristic), and not specific and germane. So they’ve all been removed, including some attached to your “answerers” in this thread.

      Please believe me. I have no intention of censoring you or others so long as the dialogue is respectful and germane. I trust you’ll agree that your very lengthy posts have not been touched, and none have been removed.

      As Milton said in The Areopagitica, “[T]hough all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play on the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously, by licensing and prohibiting, to misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter?”

      And more importantly to you and me, as our Lord said, “Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” So the dialogue continues between all us fallible human beings as we seek the truth.

      Thanks for your understanding, and for your continued participation, Stephen. I value both.

      • stephen says:

        Paul, I agree with you that those replies have been more one-liners and I do understand that you would like more dialog instead of short replies. That is alright with me. Perhaps I would like to see the pom poms cheering a little in my corner too, however. But then I am not trying to make this into a personal argument, but rather defend the name of my Lord and Savior. And so I do appreciate your honesty.

        One thing I must point out to readers here in regards to your reply that I must disagree with is, “And more importantly to you and me, as our Lord said”. Paul, if you are for homosexuality and believe that God accepts the sin of homosexuality in the lives of His children, then your Lord and my Lord are not the same Lord. I must make that distinction publicly so that others will know that there is a difference in what we believe and whom we believe in.

        • admin says:

          One last note on the subject from me. Here are samples of what I deleted from this thread and other threads on the website. I trust you’ll agree they aren’t really pom poms (great term!) supporting anyone’s views, just simple hackings to see their name online.
          And BTW, my estimate was incorrect when I said 50. As of this writing, the number is up to 101.

          • Hekcvua good job. I sure appreciate it.
          • Callnig all cars, calling all cars, we’re ready to make a deal.
          • Woot, I will ceratliny put this to good use!
          • Tip top stuff. I’ll excpet more now.
          • Whoa, whoa, get out the way with that good infortamoin.
          • Big help, big help. And supertlaive news of course.
          • Why do I bother cialnlg up people when I can just read this!
          • Always a good job right here. Keep roinllg on through.
          • Boom skahalaka boom boom, problem solved.

        • Jordan says:

          Stephen may I quote you you said

          “Paul, if you are for homosexuality and believe that God accepts the sin of homosexuality in the lives of His children, then your Lord and my Lord are not the same Lord.”

          Your assuming are you not? your assuming that Paul sees Homosexuality as a sin. You are also assuming that he also believes that his lord “accepts” the sin of Homosexuality. I think this is one time you have put your foot in your mouth. You make many assumptions in this short statement and I feel I must point out these glaring assumptions as you have pointed out many times for me and others that we are not seeing things clearly.

          • stephen says:

            Jordan, I don’t believe that I am assuming anything. It is clear that Paul (Your dad) is a homosexual as I have seen enough evidence that points that out in other pages. Therefore Paul does not see homosexuality as a sin. As I stated, “IF”. If Paul accepts the sin of homosexuality in his life and has no desire to leave his partner Bruce and knows that God condemns such a lifestyle, then Paul is in deep sin and must repent, not after he dies but now. 2 Corinthians 6:2 reads, “For he says, I have heard you in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I helped you: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation”. If and I repeat “IF” he does not willingly repent of this and believes that God will not condemn him for his actions then Paul is actually stating that his god does and willingly accepts the sin of homosexuality. His writing of this book the Kairos has come across to me in its description (for I refuse to read the trash) states that in the finding of the Dead Sea scrolls that there is evidence that Jesus was a homosexual. Jesus is God in the flesh and if God is against homosexuality how on Earth can His Son in whom He is well pleased be the complete opposite? I don’t think that I have made any assumptions here, but you Jordan, are simply defending your father and NOT the scriptures.

          • Jordan says:

            I find it interesting Stephen that you felt it important to point out that Paul is my Father. I’m also surprised that you can not face the fact that you are wrong. you stated “Paul, if you are for homosexuality and believe that God accepts the sin of homosexuality in the lives of His children, then your Lord and my Lord are not the same Lord.”

            its in black and white. you did not say “if Paul”. You were stating it as fact. if this then that. simple almost math like.

            you made a guess, you assumed you knew…

            Also you make the assumption that since he is homosexual he then does not see homosexuality as a sin. Where does he say that? Where is it written that Homosexuals don’t see their lifestyle as a sin? Thats a big assumption you make Stephen.

            I also think its interesting that you feel the need to bring up “you Jordan, are simply defending your father and NOT the scriptures.” I don’t think I have ever tried to defend the scriptures, or my father for that matter. I have been trying to learn and understand your point of view and try to help you understand my point of view.

            Yes I get defensive when someone calls my fathers work Trash. Yes I get upset when people say my father is going to hell. Would you not feel the same way? Yet Here I am talking, loving, trying to understand. I guess in the simplest form I am trying not to be afraid. Fear not as the lord said. That is written over and over in the bible. and that too is the message of this book. Gods love is great. I trust in him and live my life the best I can. Do I fallow him 100% no. Can anyone???

            Thank you for your words and care for my fathers well being.

          • stephen says:

            Alright Jordan, lets back up for a minute. I do care for every man and woman, Christian or sinner, Jew or Gentile, Gay or straight. I love all of mankind whether we disagree or not, and I love my enemies. The point of my opposition is not to attack Paul, the man, but the lifestyle he has chosen and is willingly involved in as I believe and I find in the Scripture that it is corrupt to the human soul and is hated by God. Paul is not a hated man. Can I say that any clearer? But what is evident through the description of the Kairos is that Paul is clearly providing “evidence” in a fictional story that Jesus of Nazareth was in fact a homosexual. You got clearly upset that I have pointed out that Paul is your father and yes, I understand filial love towards a family member. But I want to point out to you that no matter who is my family, God comes first and foremost in my life. This book as it is described attacks my God by saying that Jesus (God incarnate) was a homosexual.

            Let me use some of your honest angry words now to help you understand my point of view: “Yes I get defensive when someone perverts my God’s Holy infallible Word. Yes, I get upset when people make God unHoly and live as they want to live without any consequence of Hell.” Believe me, I do feel the same way. I am trying to be loving and understanding, and believe me that I do understand. I was a slave to pornography for a long time before God got a hold of my heart to finally know just why a woman MUST be clothed! I am not blind to sexual sins in the life of a man or woman, but I am saying that it is wrong to continue in that lifestyle and God WILL judge it for what it is and that is disobedience to His instructions on how to live a holy life. Did not God say, “Be ye Holy for I am Holy? Who can achieve this? No one, but it is by accepting Jesus as our savior that it is possible and by accepting Him I love Him enough to live by His example. I don’t live by a bunch of rules to try and work my way into Heaven, I live by His rules because I love Him. People can see God’s point of view and willingly change IF they so desire. Do I fear God? Indeed I do! But I know that God loves His Son and that if I am accepted by His Son that God will love me. Jesus wipes away my sins, not hides them so that God just can’t see them anymore.

            Now, you keep bringing up the statement, “Paul, if you are for homosexuality and believe that God accepts the sin of homosexuality in the lives of His children, then your Lord and my Lord are not the same Lord.” Did you read what I said? I don’t think you understood it and therefore you are assuming. The words to concentrate on here are Pauls when he stated, “Our Lord”. Jordan, does your father see homosexuality as a sin? If he does and knows Jesus as his peronal savior AND IS DESPERATELY TRYING TO BREAK FROM HIS SINFUL RELATIONSHIP then perhaps I can see Paul as a brother, although weak in the flesh. BUT if Paul is NOT actively trying to break from this lifestyle then he is clearly in sin and our Lord and master is NOT the same. Now in my “assumptions”, by living in a homosexual lifestyle and writing a book that makes Jesus out to be homosexual, I do not see any sign of repentance. I do not see any remorse or regret. I do not see Paul and myself sharing the same God. Please understand. I didn’t guess anything. I have researched the Kairos page and your fathers Facebook page and the Kairos Facebook page. I KNOW enough to make an educated conclusion. There is no guessing. Unless Paul himself finally dialogues with me as he so stated at the beginning, I can only know what is presented before me and the evidence is clear.

            Now as far as, “Where is it written that homosexuals don’t see their lifestyle as a sin?” Jordan, you don’t have to read it anywhere except in their hearts and lives. Although as a Christian presenting the Gospel to a Homosexual, I have personally had them state to me that they know that they are sinners, but they openly and proudly rebel with no repentance and desire to do so. Do I have to read it anywhere other than in their own life? In the Bible, Sodom and Gomorrah were totally destroyed because there were found none righteous. Only Lot and his two daughters fled that country and the two daughters had lived in sin city for so long that they committed incest with their own father. I don’t see very many open homosexuals seeing their lifestyles as a sin but as their personal choice with the excuse, “I was born this way”, placing the blame on God for creating them with a body opposite their internal feelings.

            Jordan, it is out of love that I respond. It is out of love for Jesus that I defend HIS good name, even at the expense of Pauls. I love Paul as a fellow man and do care for his well-being. I want to see him repent of his sin and glorify the one true God! Not write fictional things about Jesus being something He clearly is not throughout scripture. I want you to understand this as it is my first and most highest priority in life. I don’t take kindly to any blasphemous words against Jesus. If I seem to come across as angry and hateful, take what I have said into consideration. We do not have to fear a loving God if we freely and willingly accept His Son as our savior, but we have everything to fear if we don’t. Accepting Christ means repenting from our sins and out of love for our Heavenly Father, turn from our wicked ways.

            I am sorry that you think that I am wrong in this matter, but I find that it is better to please God than to please man.

          • Jordan says:

            I am not angry. I am concerned that you too don’t understand where I am coming from. I would agree with many things you have posted but I also would not agree with others.

            you ask “Did you read what I said?” in regards to “Paul, if you are for homosexuality and believe that God accepts the sin of homosexuality in the lives of His children, then your Lord and my Lord are not the same Lord.” quote we keep batting back and forth about.

            Yes I did. I keep going back to that and trying to read it any other way then what you wrote it as you keep twisting your words to fit your point of view.

            you also say “It is clear that Paul (Your dad) is a homosexual as I have seen enough evidence that points that out in other pages.” That I would agree is true.

            your next line is this “Therefore Paul does not see homosexuality as a sin.”

            How can you draw those two together? Like you said we can only know by looking into a persons heart and you don’t know him. you only know of a book he has written, oh yes and his facebook page. Is this enough “proof” of a persons heart? I don’t think so.

            You also say your doing this out of “Love” yet you use words like Trash and Garbage. How can that be out of love? I understand maybe its out of love for God? I can see that, but then should we not choose other words to describe works of man so that we are helpful, and constructive not destrictive.

            “If I seem to come across as angry and hateful, take what I have said into consideration. We do not have to fear a loving God if we freely and willingly accept His Son as our savior, but we have everything to fear if we don’t.”
            I would totally agree here with this but I also think you have missed the mark with the book as it is all about that exact idea. Fear Not.

            Stephen you state that “Now as far as, “Where is it written that homosexuals don’t see their lifestyle as a sin?” Jordan, you don’t have to read it anywhere except in their hearts and lives. ”

            How is that not assuming you know whats in their hearts. what if you see a small portion of their life is that enough to say you know who they are? Again I say no. God sees all and I know that is who we need to please and strive to be like.

          • stephen says:

            I don’t know the heart of any man. I do know the evidence of what I see. I see a man who is admittedly a homosexual and is writing a book about Jesus being a homosexual. Is that correct?

            I see a man who is writing that because this “evidence” was found that it will cause traditional Christianity to crumble and will force Christianity to accept the homosexual lifestyle in our modern times as Jesus endorses it. Am I correct?

            Does Paul see homosexuality as a sin? Please tell me, I would really like to know. And if he does see homosexuality as a sin then why is he writing that Jesus was a homosexual?

            I didn’t think that I was condemning Paul’s heart, only the underlining theme in the Kairos.

            Yes, I used the words “trash” and “garbage”, and please understand why. Paul may be a great author and I don’t doubt that he is. I even stated in the beginning in a post dated on October 13th, “No doubt the book is very well written and has excellent plot lines, but it has one thing that absolutely makes it total garbage in God’s eyes and that is the blasphemy of His Holy Son. So no, I out of the love of my God will not be reading it”.

            Did you get that, Jordan? The garbage and trash I am referring to is the idea of simple blasphemy. Jesus is Holy. He is perfect. He came to die for my sins, not indulge in them and make them okay. Since Paul himself has yet to come forth and refute anything that I have said on this page, I have no choice but to come to my conclusions unless he himself tells me otherwise. How else am I to know? Was my face not placed at the top of the Kairos page with the quote, “I’m glad the gentleman was willing share his views, but it would seem healthier to me if “WE” could engage in dialog”. I have yet to have this dialog with Paul himself. Constructive criticism? Paul is a great author I am sure. Destructive criticism- never blaspheme the name of Jesus Christ!

            Please explain to me, as I would like to know, the phrase and it’s meaning within the book, “Fear not”. Is it referring to allowing God’s grace to cover your sins as you struggle to repent and live for Him, or is it saying that you can live your life as you see it and not fear because God will not punish you as Jesus took on that punishment for you so you can continue to live in your sin?

            Again, I don’t know what is in any man’s heart. don’t see the root of any tree but by its fruit I can identify it. That is not to say that I am judging Paul’s soul. I am judging a book. I through my own honest heartfelt attempts here, am trying to show scriptural reasoning as to why homosexuality is a sin and that Paul must turn from it. Where am I wrong in wanting to see a man flee from sin and into Heaven’s salvation? Again, does Paul see it as a sin? If so, is he attempting to turn from it? Paul? Enlighten me here. An acorn reveals an oak tree. A pumpkin seed reveals a pumpkin. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Yes, by their works ye shall know them. Until Paul comes forth and tells me his heart, Jordan I don’t know him.

            I am glad that he has a son that will stick up for him. I am again not trying to say anything out of bitterness or anger either. If you do see and agree with me on some points, especially in regards to my love for the purity of the Bible, then please understand. I am not looking for anyone to aggrandize me and I didn’t come here looking for a fight. I am simply trying to love my God, to please Him by showing a true and honest picture of my Lord, not a “twisted” viewpoint. I am striving to be like Him. I do hope you see that.

  5. Its like you read my mind! You appear to know so much about this, like you wrote the book in it or something. I think that you could do with a few pics to drive the message home a little bit, but other than that, this is excellent blog. A fantastic read. I’ll definitely be back.

    • admin says:

      Royal~ Great to have you joining the conversation. May I ask a couple of questions?
      1–did you wish for pictures in this blog, or in The Kairos?
      2–what specifically prompted your [most welcome!] words, “…this is excellent blog. A fantastic read.”
      Thanks~
      Paul

  6. Despite having serious problems with this book myself, I am somewhere between amused and appalled at Stephen’s many comments about homosexuality and its wickedness, particularly back on the 15th. He has much to learn (including about faulty biblical translations re such as “effeminate”) as perhaps so too does the book’s author since I feel it portrays the Essenes unrecognizably. The Jesus of this story would have been punished and thrown out of any Essene community if behaving as described.

    Homosexuality a choice? For some maybe, but not most. Some are born “eunuchs” from their mother’s wombs as Jesus tells us, and this will in some instances signify gay as modern scholarship has realized from careful study of ancient literature. By Jesus’ times it does not automatically and invariably mean either castrated or celibate but it does signify a person who is an outsider, and for the kingdom of heaven one might need to be that. That is almost certainly what Jesus means, or at least it is one of the meanings.

    The saying was in part a hint, probably little or not at all understood by the disciples, that Jesus was himself third sex. How can we know one way or another at this late date in history? There are two ways to know, an internal argument from scripture I won’t pursue here (it has a lot to do with John’s gospel and also hidden meaning in the Sermon on the Mount), and then there is a major supplementary argument, one which from incredulity, ignorance or prejudice, almost no one is prepared even to look at. That is the stars of Jesus’ birth… So how can we know to be sure when Jesus was born anyway, is immediately asked?

    The fact is that the Hughes/D’Occhieppo thesis (from two leading astronomers) about Christ’s birth proves stunningly correct and can be tested and proved astrologically with factors working for Christ issues to this day – the requisite for any true horoscope. It is so accurate I have even been able to apply 440 name, place and concept asteroids to it and it all works for Christ with incredible biblical accuracy. This cannot possibly not be the true data for Christ and btw, Qumran conjuncts Christ’s identity giving sun indicating some kind of association of Jesus and his teachings with the Essenes if only through acceptance of the astrology that they practiced. It is certainly their kind of Messianism and Sonship that the gospels assume but that all Israel didn’t necessarily.

    This same data contains a variety of revealing factors for third sex nature, including even Born conjunct Saris (eunuch in Hebrew) conjunct the “ruler” of the chart and the subject’s body by the astrological rules.

    I must wearily congratulate the author of Kairos on his publicity machine and connections. Even as a doctor of religious studies and with a whole book officially published on gay spirituality, no amount of appeals, protests,self-advertisement can get me heard or published (not even considered for publication) on what is the last word for this generation on this subject. Since almost any lies about Christ can and do get published I suggest the problem is spiritual where publishers and media are concerned.

    If anyone wants the information about the data for Christ which covers the gay issue along with much else it is available self published on Amazon as
    “Testament of the Magi”

    My website is as given above
    http://www.rollanmccleary.com

    • stephen says:

      Really think through and work through the issues. Does the Bible speak against homosexuality or does your world view allow it and therefore you read it in the Bible, thus perverting and twisting the scriptures? Because that is what I believe that you are trying to do here. I am not sure of your background, but it seems that you are the one who has a lot to learn in the translations and that you have not read the Bible through. Also it is clear that if you accept homosexuality in the Bible that you are denying the deity of Jesus.

      You have brought up the Eunuch. Interestingly enough the eunuch should be identified as someone who has no sexual desire at all. It doesn’t read into someone who has feminine qualities and desires to mate with a person that is his own gender. That is completely frowned upon by God. There is only one sexual activity that God allows and that is within the bonds of Holy matrimony. However, I perceive through your previous comment that you find this laughable and therefore I will not argue with you. I will say that unless you repent of your sins and allow Jesus to work in your heart through His Holy Spirit, you will not enter into the kingdom of God.

  7. stephen says:

    Psalm 101:3- “I will set no wicked thing before my eyes”

  8. Sheri Sooy says:

    Stephen…”Do you believe in God” you asked me, not once but twice. Here goes, twice:

    I do not believe in God and I do not believe in God.

    Over the past forty years, my spirituality has become greater with some ties to the Native American ways and some the teachings of Buddha. I do not consider myself part of any organized religion but live my life in a manner of which I am proud. I have not found ‘it’ yet and maybe I never will. I am comfortable with this! Afterlife? Perhaps, with great joy, it will be my pleasure to cross over the Rainbow Bridge and spend eternity with the five dogs who have shared my life. Peace and love to you and to you dear Jordan.

    • stephen says:

      Sheri, it is clear to me that you are not willing to talk about the Bible. It is clear that you don’t care about that “It” of which you speak. You won’t believe in an ancient book that has been copied down for centuries exact and to the letter (Archaeology has proven this), yet you will believe in Native American superstitions and of Buddha which has no written record of what he was/is/will be, and cannot be relied on as it has nothing to base itself on. What you have chosen is a religion that make you feel good and happy; one of only yourself, not that of the truth. This is why you have no problem reading a book that makes Jesus a homosexual. You sound as if you refuse to know the truth. Sheri, Jesus died for you too and it is your choice to believe in Him or not. Jesus too was a rebel towards “organized religion”, but gave us something absolute to believe in. You will pick up the Kairos and read it, but what about the Bible? You will pick up an book on Buddha or the American Indian, but what about the Bible (Twice again). Your sarcasm reveals your hard-heart. It is your choice to accept Jesus Christ as your savior or not.

      • Sheri Sooy says:

        All right Stephen first of all I fear not the Bible nor God. Until this exchange I had not even thought about the Bible and had to do some digging to find my Book. Neither you nor I have read The Kairo’s…my mind is open to it and I will read it when my book arrives. I fear not reading something that may be controversial. Why would you? You may learn something.

        After my refresher of the Book of John, I do have a question for you. If Jesus doesn’t condemn, should we humans condemn? John 8 seems to be His answer to people who want to judge other people, doesn’t it?

        • stephen says:

          Sheri, 1 Corinthians 2:15 says, “He that is spiritual judges all things”. Psalm 45:7 says, “Thy throne, Oh God, is forever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter. You love righteousness and hate wickedness”. Those of us who wish to please God will know that this judging between right and wrong righteously is highly pleasing to God.

          Micah 3: 1-2 says, “Is it not for you to know judgment? who hate the good and love the evil?”, and in verse 18 of that same book and chapter, “Then shall ye return and and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serves God and Him that serves him not?”

          Read 1 Kings 3: 9-12, Proverbs 24:23-25, Amos 5:15, 1 John 4:1-3… I can go on and on.

          In the gospel of John, you are referring to Jesus rebuking the religious order as they tried to condemn a woman who was caught in the act of adultery. They did this in order to trick Jesus and set Him up as they were judging according to their religious set of laws that they had added to the scriptures in order to manipulate and control the synagogues. The woman had truly been caught in adultery, a sin unto God, but where was the guilty man in this passage? Why was he not condemned along side of the woman? Jesus knew that the Pharisees were attempting to trick Him because the threat of God’s Messiah would wipe out their power over the masses ,and He read their hearts. Every one of these so called “religious men” had also committed this act of adultery as well openly and secretly. Jesus acted wisely and told them, “He who is without sin, cast the first stone”. None could condemn the woman then as they all were guilty. Although Jesus didn’t judge the woman and condemn her, He DID judge and condemn the religious order of his day. It was an act of grace to the woman and she was saved from death. This verse is often used to say that Christians who are followers of Christ are not to judge, but when someone does this they first are not reading it in context and along with the entire Bible that contains so many passages where we are to judge. I personally cannot condemn a sinner to Hell but should love him and present the gospel to him. I cannot condemn you to death for that is God’s judgment and I am to love my fellow man. I can however judge righteously to know the right and the wrong and to follow what is right. God gives instructions in the Bible as to how to live a Christian life and with this instruction we can know who is or is not a follower of Christ.

          So in my simple judgment of right and wrong, I go to the scriptures. God commands in Exodus 20:7 not to take the Lord God’s name in vain. Jesus is God’s Son and the revealed name under which all men shall be saved. Romans 3:23 says, “For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. Revelations 21:8 gives a list of those that HE will condemn to Hell. The fact that blasphemy is on that list gives me good reason to allow God’s judgment to influence my own. I also know that in the same book, God has revealed His remedy for sin and that I have already presented so many times here on this post and that is to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. That believing is a trusting in His holiness to save you from your acknowledged sins and to repent from them and to live in accordance to His Holy Word.

          And so, I don’t condemn your soul, Sheri. I wouldn’t dare do a thing like that. But I am to judge the fruit of your life. Do not judges do this in a court of law? Do we not judge what is right and wrong in life? You judge daily. Your words condemn you. As I see it and according to the scriptures, and in accordance to what I already know about the book, it is blasphemious. It is making my Savior into a sinful man incapable to be the Holy sacrifice of God for me. IF Jesus did not die for me and there is no grace, then I am still condemned and since all have sinned we are all doomed to Hell, but thank God He has saved me! Thank God I can know by God’s Word that I have a place in Heaven with Him.

  9. Sheri Sooy says:

    I continue to read in these postings about “homosexual lifestyle” as if it were a choice. Would it not be a ‘choice’ to become a teacher, burglar, police officer, thief, lawyer, to be more healthy, etc. ATTENTION PLEASE: Homosexuality is not a choice anymore than heterosexuality is.

    • stephen says:

      Homosexuality is choice. Look in your mirror and tell me that God made you a woman. You may feel manly and like to take charge, but that does not give you the right to redefine what God has made. He didn’t make a mistake. Men pervert what He made.

      • Jordan says:

        I was just reading past posts and I think this is one that I would argue you’re a sexist stephen. you said “You may feel manly and like to take charge, but that does not give you the right to redefine what God has made.”

        How is that “Manly”? I’m a man but I will defer my call to anyone who knows what they are doing better than I do. I do take charge when I am the best for it but I would never say that is a Manly thing to do.

        it’s a sign of a good leader… to know when you are the best to lead or when you need to follow. Right?

        • stephen says:

          Jordan, If you would stop beating around the bush and answer my previous questions this whole thing would go along a lot better. You think I’m sexist? Now who is assuming? I think that you are really trying hard to read between the lines in what I am saying, dude. Answer the November 8th posts for me.

          • admin says:

            [The following was forwarded to me, Paul Hartman, by a friend who explained his computer literacy has not progressed to the point of understanding how to transfer his draft (contained in the email) into a comment box in this blog. So the “poster” appears to be me/”admin”, but is actually a writer friend named Jim. ~Paul Hartman 11/11/11]

            To Stephen, Jordan, Paul, et.al.

            I have been following your dialogue “stream” (I hate these new words) for the past month and have a few uninvited thoughts:

            I don’t like to use words like “sad” or “grief” to describe my reactions, but I just find it tragic that humans, and in our case “Christian” humans, continue to insist on bludgeoning one another, often people they don’t know and don’t understand, with accusations of “sin” and worse, and threats of “judgment” and worse. They base their judgment on “sacred writ,” “scripture,” “God’s Word,” and other labels used to intimidate (lovingly of course) people with whom they disagree. This presumably gives their opinion Authority it would not otherwise have.

            I am 72 years old. I was born, raised and indoctrinated as a “Lutheran” Christian in all that that branch of religion is supposed to believe. My father was a Lutheran minister, as were two uncles and a cousin. I attended one Lutheran college and worked at another for 26 years. (There is more but that is enough.)

            But these Lutheran/Christian beliefs troubled me from about age 5. Finally, about a decade ago, I gave myself permission to give up any further attempt to “believe” what I was supposed to believe about God, Christ and Scripture. The continuing condemnation of gays by “Christians” (and other “religions” for that matter) was not the only reason, but it was significant. By that time I had at least a dozen friends who in recent years, like Paul, had “come out.” I heard their stories of lifetimes of pain as they tried to live a straight life in conflict with their nature. I haven’t attended a church service since. That can be difficult, since many of my associations have been in the church. But finally my soul is at peace; I no longer have to reconcile what I “believe” with what I know.

            Many Christians would now label me atheist (another perjorative word intended to intimidate). My god is, and really always has been, the god of the universe, as vast and magnificent as we now know that is. It is the god who continually reveals to us through science, both our nature and the nature of the cosmos (macro and micro). A personal god? For me, much more so than the vengeful desert deity of antiquity. It is now also widely known how the Bible was cobbled together in the first millennium, some in centuries after the life of Christ. (And of course how it is constantly retranslated and interpreted up to the present day, often to suit bias.)

            I extend my heartfelt blessings to my friend Paul, other gay friends, and GLBT as a whole as they travel in this still too hostile world. My admiration to Paul, whose book is a remarkable piece of religious fiction which would be well worth Stephen’s time to read. It is hard for me to understand how people like Paul, oppressed by religion, can so devoutly accept it, but that is their choice. All I can say to the Stephens of the world is: your views cause immeasurable pain to countless people who you do not know and have done nothing to harm you. That is opposite the teachings of your Savior. You believe your precious Book justifies your opinion and your judgment. Embrace your opinion, if you must, but cease flogging strangers with it.

            jlp

          • stephen says:

            Jim,

            First let me ask you one thing, from where does your authority come and your right to judge right and wrong in the universe, especially in the realm of morality if not from God? It is true that men are highly intelligent, have come a long way in science, and are capable of judging actions in things concerning certain rights and wrongs, but man’s judgment is flawed and cannot see the entire picture unless an all-knowing God Himself points out these things to us. Men are finite and yet God is infinite. Our world is in such turmoil and pain right this very moment because our governments cannot come up with simple solutions to fix our problems. You must agree that something is definitely wrong with us. What if a loving God revealed to us through history and in certain points in time certain revelations that pointed to a way to correct us? What if He wrote them down by the hands of men and by His divine guidance preserved that Word so that it would be inerrant to this day?

            I am deeply sorry that after all of those years that you have become so completely embittered with the scriptures and have entirely dismissed them because it as God’s divine authority, didn’t fit into what your love, your peace of mind, and what you wanted to believe and how you think Gods universe should run. I am sorry that you have felt intimidated but is that not because GOd for all of these years has tried to get a hold of your heart and convict you of your own personal sins and finally about ten years ago you made a decision to finally reject His loving hand? Love is NOT the answer, at least not the kind of love you seem to imply. God’s love says to love the sinner, hate the sin. Let me put it in an example involving the medical world. If you knew that a man was sick and had a fatal disease, but somehow knew what he needed to do in order to survive, would you take the risk of telling him of the cure even if he didn’t believe you and fought against your desire to help him for his good? WOuld it not be alright to be the “bad guy” in this situation? I, as anyone can see at the top of this page, was invited to engage in this dialogue. My opinions and beliefs were asked to be placed here on this page by none other than the admin himself. I have not “flogged” anyone without their own consent.

            My God revealed to me much more than science. He revealed to me His Son, Christ Jesus and in any branch of science you wish to discuss we can see the glory of God in it all, but without Christ it is simply human no matter how deep and divine. This universe will one day melt away with fervent heat and what we have known will all disolve away to make room for the coming of God’s magnificent glory, much more dazzling than what we have here. Science lacks a divine nature and that of what man misses is revealed by God Himself, and that is His Salvation. Many people can see the natural theology and attribute it to idols and personal gods that are made in the image of men, beasts; made of wood and stone, or in our case now in the 21st century, us, but it took a loving God to reveal to man in a “kairos” moment His divinity and His hoiness. He revealed to us His Son and in Him is found no sin!.

            I am afraid that through your many years of study you have completely misunderstood God’s hand in the delivery and preservation of His Holy Word. Jesus is Holy, and if you wish to see a literal retranslation and interpretation of the Bible in order to suit bias, just read where Paul has redefined God’s Holy Son to be like man and to live in sin with a male lover in which makes Jesus a man unworthy to have died for my sins. The fact tha Jesus died and was resurrected gives me assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by a Holy God in my behalf.

            Jim, you obviously do not know my Savior at all and have completely rejected Him, and the reason why you think that MY views are causing immeasurable pain to strangers is because I am using scripture and as it says in Hebrews 4:12- For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Yes, I believe God’s PRECIOUS Book justifies His opinion and His judgment. I will definitely continue to embrace it as God’s Word is life. If you care to read the Bible that you have obviously shelved then read Mark 16:15 and Matthew 28:19. Does it not tell me to Go into the world and preach the gospel to all creation? That includes ALL men, both Christians and sinners.

            Luke 6:28 says, “Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you”. I pray for you, Jim. As I do also pray for Paul and Jordan that God will show them the light of His word. Mat 5:44-45 says, “But I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.

            Most of all I cling to this verse, Matthew 5:10-12 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you”. The book of Hebrews gives a record of those who were literally killed for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a sin-sick world (Hebrews 11:38).

            I am still waiting to hear from Jordan concerning November the 8ths post. Today is November the 12th and I wonder just what has happened to him? I brought up that Paul was his father because I knew that he would be emotionally defending his father and that it would blind him to my point that Paul has written blasphemy. Filial loyalty does that. I have not intentionally tried to hurt anyone, but to painfully be honest and reveal the truth. The truth hurts. There is either conviction or anger towards what I have said. As far as persecution? It is allright. I expected it when my face was plastered at the top of this page. I knew that I would suddenly be marked as the one who would publicly denounce the book entitled Kairos that, by the way I will still not read.

        • Sheri Sooy says:

          I haven’t visited here in a long while (because I haven’t had the time). Today, I thank you sweet Jordan for your post above on November 19. Clearly I was offended by Stephen’s sexist comment to me but didn’t have the energy to respond to his blatant remarks. I no longer give him any power to ramble on and “suck the energy” out of me. I have made the “choice” (oops, sarcasm here Stephen)instead, to spend my time reading The Kairo’s. I recommend it Stephen…it is a great read! Again, thank you Jordan for ‘stepping up’.

      • Paul says:

        The temperature appears to be rising, gentlemen. Please “say unto others as you would have them say unto you.” Perhaps an old family motto will help guide your choice of words: “Love without honesty is a sham, but honesty without love is brutality.” It’s good that you’re engaging each other honestly; please make sure you’re doing so kindly and with care for the other. Thanks.

  10. Sheri Sooy says:

    Jordan…I love your passion for the subject and perhaps I did not express my feelings very well. When it comes to religion I admit I am not well versed. As I said, I struggled through reading the Bible at a young age. I rarely discuss religion or politics…it’s a rule however I stand strong that a book written so long ago cannot be completely relevant today. Now, I bow out of the “argument” so as not to confuse issues.

    • stephen says:

      An argument? I thought this was supposed to be “healthy dialog”?

      • Jordan says:

        Stephen I am sorry if my last post had a twinge of attitude.

        you say “If you advocate the book, then you place yourself as an accomplice to its blasphemy. ” I don’t agree. if I advocate that people read it with an open mind and read it to understand another point of view. That is what I am advocating. I also have to think that this is not a biography of Jesus its a story written by a man who loves the lord.

        The Story is more about gods love and the drama we humans put in front, or in the way of it. Like you said we make things difficult if we could walk and talk like Jesus, life would be much easier, but we are broken.

        I would say this Stephen and all who might read these posts to trust the lord and to have faith in him. Fear not the lord is with you and will guide you. if you ask for forgiveness and want help he will lead you to a better place.

        I hope you find the strength to read the book and please by all means post what you think. I and many others would love to hear what you have to say.

        • stephen says:

          Jordan, if this man loves the Lord then he would not have a life-partner named Bruce. He wrote a fictional story that again, may be riveting and packed with adventure, but he put one element that guarantees that I will not read it and it is the fact that he has made my Lord into what he is, and that is a homosexual.

          If you want to read a story of God’s love, please read the Bible. Yes man is broken and sinful, but as we read His Holy Word, through Jesus we are made better. If we read the Kairos we make Jesus broken too. We bring Him down to our level of sin. We make Him just a man and no longer God who can save the world.

          Jesus does want us to have faith in Him and to trust in His salvation. Repentance is His message, not a feeling comfortable in your sins.

          I am sorry but I will not read the Kairos. I will not watch the televised movie. It is complete garbage to make someone so precious as my Jesus into something He is not and absolutely hates. Homosexuality is a sin against God’s Holiness and plan for men. It IS a choice. The fact that there are ex-homosexuals attests to this. There are more reasons as to why it is wrong. Please understand that I am upholding Jesus in His purity. My devotion to my Savior means everything to me.
          He loved me so much that He died for me. What else can I do for Him?

  11. stephen says:

    Sheri, You asked me, “Who put you in charge over us?”. My reply is that I am not in charge over anyone. I did not come to tell you how to live your life. That is your option of God’s gift of free will, but you ignore the fact that God is in charge of your life and it is to Him that you answer in the end, not me. It is to His Holy Word that you must live for, not me nor your own sinful lusts. The Bible is not an ancient book but timely in it’s message because it, like its author is eternal. In Gods eyes, we are ALL guilty before Him and without Him we must face His judgment. But don’t think that I have come to preach judgment to you, but rather mercy and grace. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life”.

    “What makes you think you know anything about this book, or, the author?” Sheri, read the biography of the author. He is divorced and has a life-partner. In the credits of those who advocate his book, Sir Elton John has been mentioned and he is a very outspoken homosexual. Elton’s quote and opinion about Jesus is that he was a very intelligent gay man. The book itself is described as one that fictionalizes Jesus’ teen-aged years and speaks of Him having a life-partner. That is enough for me to know just what this book is about and guarantee me NOT reading it no matter how adventurous and well-written it may be. It clearly goes against scripture and makes Jesus an advocate for the Gay movement and not the Holy undefiled Savior of the world who knew no sin. How could Jesus be the holy sacrificial Lamb of God if He too participated in the sins and fleshly lusts of the world?

    Sheri, it is not me who doesn’t have an open mind but perhaps it is you. You are not open to the scriptures and refuse to allow the God of the Bible into your life. You sound as though you are a slave to your own passions and are not willing to be obedient to what God commands and give up your sins for God’s eternal salvation. The 21st century? We need God now more than ever!

    @ Jordan- Ephesians 6:24 “Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.” When you attempt to use this scripture in the proper context it is a reference to Christians who hold to the entire Word of God. If you love Jesus, you keep His commandments, not pervert them. It is clear in His Word that God is against any sexual relationship that is not in His arrangement of Holy matrimony, and that ONLY being of one man and one woman. Taken out of context you create a love that is entirely foreign to God and doesn’t exist. Love is not the answer although it would seem ideal to the world, but God and His Holiness is.

    Thessalonians 3:16 “Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.” This in NOT a peace to live in your sins. God never has condoned sin and when Jesus Died on the cross for the sins of man, God turned His back on Jesus, His own Son because Christ had taken all of the garbage and the filth of man upon Himself to deposit in the wrath of God (i.e. Hell). A place prepared for the Devil and His angels and that sinful men will occupy if they do not love God and accept His grace and mercy and follow His commandments. Proper matrimony is one of them.

    “We can all quote scripture in many different ways and look at things as black or white when we want to. Stephen I understand your desire to stay strong for his work and word as you see it, But did the lord also say love your neighbor.” Yes, Jordan, men DO quote scriptures as they see it to promote their own personal agenda making God into something other than our Father, but more like our own personal genie in a bottle, but what do the scriptures say? What is the context? Do you read it as God wrote it through His holy prophets? Believe me, I am not giving you my own answers but what God Himself has revealed through His Words to my heart as it is written. And I do love my neighbor. I love every man and have no malice towards anyone. I love you all so much that I am here to lovingly speak to you and to ask you to repent of your sins and turn from the belief that homosexuality is alright at any time and in any century. The problem is that neither you nor Sheri know me. You read what I type and it is enough for you to think that I hate and that I am narrow minded, but I am not. I love, but I am human as are you guys and man’s love is fallible. We live by our own definitions of love. But I ask you, is the love of fallen man that of the Unfallen unadulterated love of God? God’s love is Holy and pure. How dare we pervert it and turn it into the lusts of our own heart! According to John 8:7, the context proves that even the Pharisees were guilty of adultery. Jesus was not. It exposed the sins of not just one woman in a witch hunt, but the sins of the clergy as well. Not that all pastors are guilty of sexual sins, but the point of Jesus was that all men are sinners and that Gods judgment must be left to His Holy judgment, and through His Holy Word and commandments we know and are given the ability to judge rightly here on this planet and yes, in this century.

    This book will not strengthen my faith because, as you have stated it teaches you to fear not. Fear not what? God and His Holy judgment? Grace is no excuse to sin and does not erase God’s commandments. It shows them in a different light. God will punish the sin of homosexuality, but the sinner can be saved. God does not want men to see Him as judgmental, but loving to the point that we love Him and live as He created us to live, not in our own flesh.

    I made my comment. Anyone who writes a book that makes Jesus out to be anything other than my Savior is not worth my time in reading. It is blasphemy and if YOU love God you will not blaspheme His Holy name. Jesus did not come to advocate our lifestyles of sin, but rather to save us from our sins and provide a way to live peaceably and pure in the sight of a Holy God.

    • Jordan says:

      Stephen, I don’t wish to argue but when did I say I approve of the homosexual lifestyle? I also wonder how you are blessed with being able to read the bible as god wrote it? as you stated we are sinful so if I misunderstand something in the bible is it not because I am broken? Can I not make a mistake? Can people not make a mistake and then learn from it?

      • stephen says:

        Jordan, I don’t know if you advocate the homosexual lifestyle or not, but this book as well as the author does by its/his own admission. If you advocate the book, then you place yourself as an accomplice to its blasphemy.

        As to be being blessed with being able to read the Bible as God wrote it… God didn’t write a complicated book. It is men who complicate it. Read it in its context and live obediently as to how the Creator intended for us to live. If you were a car would you not live according to the manual in your glove compartment? Yes, man is sinful and even though we can misinterpret it, God does allow mistakes IF you don’t pursue those mistakes and turn from them when the mistake is shown to you. Reading into the scriptures that Jesus was a homosexual is the belief in a Satanic lie. So many people have tried to make Jesus more of a man designed in their own image rather than us in His Divine image. Jesus is the express image of God Himself. In Him there can be found no sin. Did I not quote 1 Corinthians 6:9? Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither FORNICATORS, nor IDOLATERS, nor ADULTERERS, nor EFFEMINATE, nor ABUSERS WITH THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND… Tell me, Jordan, how is that so hard to understand???

        You say that you don’t want to argue with me, but now that I have laid out my cards on the table you do seem to have an attitude in your last reply. At first you were seemingly understanding in allowing me my say. What happened? The gospel is an offence to many.

  12. Jordan says:

    Ephesians 6:24 “Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.”

    Thessalonians 3:16 “Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.”

    We can all quote scripture in many different ways and look at things as black or white when we want to. Stephen I understand your desire to stay strong for his work and word as you see it, But did the lord also say love your neighbor. Did he not say in john 8:7 “When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    I also ask why you would not read the book first so you could see if its something to blast or if its something you can use to strengthen your faith.

    We all have our beliefs and ways we understand the bible and its teachings. I feel like this is one more book that can help others strengthen their beliefs or help bring them to understand that in god we should “Fear not.”

    I also think you are a brave soul for posting and I applaud you for that. I just hope that you are open to gods grace and love and trust he will use this for good not evil.

    peace.

  13. stephen says:

    Deuteronomy 32:32, Isaiah 1:9, Lamentations 4:6, Matthew 10:15, Romans 1:23-32, Revelation 11:8

    • stephen says:

      1 Corinthians 6:9- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…

  14. stephen says:

    Yes, I am referring to your “alternative view” of Jesus’ orientation and instead of first placing me on this website saying that it would be healthier if we dialogued, perhaps you should have said something to me via Facebook instead of making me the first to cast a stone and make your book more valuable as being a martyr for your blasphemy without having that healthy conversation you talked about.

    It is clear that although you have a background in various church activities and perhaps even have read and know something of the Bible, that you have no clear understanding of just who Jesus is and what He is. That you have not repented from your sin and have allowed your sins to pervert the scriptures as they are meant to be read in their context. Jesus is God, and the God of the Bible hates the sin of Homosexuality. Anyone who reads the Bible will know this for sure. There is only ONE sexual relationship that God condones in the Bible and that is the marriage act of one man and one woman in Holy matrimony. The homosexual agenda/excuse is only attempting to discredit Jesus as being the Savior of the world who died for the sins of mankind and turn Him into a message to say that being homosexual is alright and that God will not punish it for what it is- rebellion towards His Holiness.

    Your novel not only is spreading a lie about the Christ of God, but is doing so in an attractive passage of adventure and intrigue. No doubt the book is very well written and has excellent plot lines, but it has one thing that absolutely makes it total garbage in God’s eyes and that is the blasphemy of His Holy Son. So no, I out of the love of my God will not be reading it. God is love, but man’s definition of love is not that of God’s definition. God’s love is rooted in His Holiness and not in the perversions of man and their burning lusts towards one another. My view is not “alternative”. My view is not what I am promoting here in a work of fiction. What I want is for people to read the Bible and know the truth of what it says about homosexuality. Not my view, but God’s view. If any man or woman is a homosexual, yes God will forgive them of their sin, but they must be willing to turn away from their sin and in turn God will place His love in their hearts and lives. But God hates the sin as it is a perversion of His providential and Holy design. God did not make mistakes and male and female are no accidents.

    I am aware that many will not appreciate what I am saying,even those so-called Christians that agree with you but Jesus said that I would be persecuted in His name, and in doing so to endure. Then I would inherit His eternal life for me. And so in His name I ask you to repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, not your twisted attempt to give you rites of passage to a love forbidden by Him. Those who love sin will reap what they sow.

    • Sheri Sooy says:

      I am sorry for you Stephen and feel that perhaps your narrow mindedness has kept you in another time period. We live in the twenty-first century and should be open to many different cultures, ideas and beliefs. Who put you in charge of any of us? What makes you think you know anything about this book, or, the author? I’m sure that you don’t anyone who feels differently than you do. May I suggest that you open your mind and your heart to this century?

      • Jordan says:

        Sheri I would agree we do live in the twenty-first century but what if anything does that have to do with Stephen’s arguments. Yes the culture and our race has changed its views on many topics but that doesn’t mean that they are now right.

        I also feel like you as Stephen did, are not understanding enough of the message. We should not fear. The lord is with us always. Maybe if we all take a page from lute and face our fears… challenge our own beliefs and trust in the lord to help us understand the right, then we can all live together in a happy place.

        I know that your standing up for the book and the author but I know that the lord is going to use this book. Maybe not in the way we all think but it is in gods plan. We must just trust in him and all will be good.

        • Sheri Sooy says:

          Anyone who lives word for word today by what they find on the pages of the Bible must realize what total chaos it might bring. For all of your quotes Stephan I have yet to see any of the verses that speak of the violent ways of dealing with “sinners” in the Bible. It has been many years since I have read the Bible but in my life experience the way I was raised still serves me best.

          “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” It’s called The Golden Rule! Is this a verse in the Bible? I do not know, but, it does not call for criticism of others for who they are or what they express. I believe in giving back and sharing time with the lonely elderly, those who are grieving and those living with HIV and AIDS. I have a full life and stand true to my belief system

          Stephen I am a slave to my own passions…My love of my wonderful family, friends and my fellow man(including those who do not agree with me). I am passionate about my country, our flag and our soldiers. I have great passion for nature and it’s beauty. Peace is on my mind always. As for my “sinful lusts” as you stated, yep, you got me there. My one sinful lust is for chocolate…that’s it.

          • stephen says:

            Sheri, by your own admission it has been many years since you have read the Bible. Too many in my opinion, and yet you are so hard-hearted and critical towards it. Do you believe in God? Do you care to know what He has planned for your life? Do you know where you will spend eternity when this life is done? Of course the Bible has demonstrations of violence and reveals much about God’s dealings with sinners. So does modern day news and television and the audience can’t seem to get enough of it. The Bible does an excellent job of recording history. But you haven’t read the Bible through. You don’t seem to see the love of God here. Instead you attribute it to ancient outdated texts that was invented to make men fear something out there called God. That is your opinion of the scriptures not a well-studied fact.

            Yes, the golden rule is Matthew 7:12. And it is a wonderful rule, but that rule will not save your soul. I don’t care how good a person is, his goodness will not get him into Heaven. Only by believing that God sent His Son to die FOR YOUR SINS instead of you having to suffer that wrath and violence, will you get to Heaven. Which takes us back to the point of this book that has been written. Jesus is the Son of God. He did not come to advocate our sins and He absolutely did NOT come to be a homosexual. That is blasphemy! By praising this book you betray your love and acceptance of allowing the sin of homosexuality to remain and in doing so fulfills a sinful lust whether you are directly involved with it or not and that is enough for God to place you guilty before His eternal authority. Again, do you believe in God? Is He in control of your life or do you control Him? Is He made in your image or you in His? I do believe that you would much rather make God in your own image and live as you wish. If that is what you want to do, then I won’t stop you. You will answer to God on your own.

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